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May 28th, 2009
09:24 am - Puffy
After 15 years of cheese selling (my anniversary was May 18!), it’s not like I think I’ve seen it all, but I feel like I have a general handle on the questions I will get. Last weekend however, one threw me for a loop.
A guy walks up to me and says, “What’s your margin on cheese?”
“Are you asking as a customer or as a food professional?” I respond. Something about his manner is odd, not the least of which is that there’s no lead up to this question at all and he asks as if it were just as normal to ask this as “where’s the brie?” I ask this question mostly because I want to know if he understands the difference between margin and mark-up,* and also because I want to try and figure out where he’s coming from.
“Food professional.”
“I’ll answer your question, but I find it strange – if you are in the food business – that you can’t tell by looking at the prices. There are not a lot of secrets in the food world. We pretty much all know what each other pay for things. Where do you work?”
“I work at a company that sells products online.”
“Ok, so you want me to tell you how we do our pricing but you won’t tell me where you work or why you are asking. I mean, I’m standing here at my workplace so you know where I’m coming from but you won’t give me any information about yourself and you expect me to tell you what are generally considered trade secrets. Doesn’t that strike you as a little odd?”
“I didn’t mean it that way. I work on the computer systems.”
“Ok, for what company?”
“…” Clearly this is a secret for some reason.
“Ok, here’s the deal, our cheese margins are between 35-50% which is low for the industry. What our margin is depends on how much labor goes into a cheese. Does that answer your question?”
“(Looking at a two-year aged gouda) I just find it strange that you can sell cheese for $15/lb. Why don’t people just buy it at Costco?”**
It’s certainly not limited to selling cheese, but this is how people get themselves into trouble. If he had identified himself as a customer I would have been much friendlier, answering the question after I generally explained the issues behind cheese pricing: high labor to sales ratio, higher cost of refrigeration that regular grocery, need to cover shrink, etc. as well as the fact that pricing also reflects that people can ask questions to workers who get paid a living wage (with benefits) and therefore tend to have more knowledge and experience than people at other stores.
By puffing himself up, he unknowingly violated the unwritten rule of the food trade which is that the first thing you do when asking questions to someone else in the food trade is identify yourself. He thereby put himself in the category of people like the sales rep who once called me up pretending to be a customer asking me about Cheese X*** and saying that we really needed to carry it and that he and all his friends would buy it etc. Liars and time-wasters are the most reviled people in the business. That doesn’t seem like an unusual concept.
*Margin is the percent you make after subtracting the wholesale price of a product. It is related to – but different from – the mark up. For example, if we pay $1 for something and our mark up is 50% we charge $1.50. Since .50 is the amount we net, 33% is the margin because .50 is 33% of $1.50.
**It’s not that this is not a valid question. It’s simply that a cheese professional would know the answer to this. This is food retail 101.
**Since they dealt with him quickly and appropriately, I will not ID the company.
Current Music: X - "Call of the Wreckin' Ball"
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Comments:
I also feel like his question- followed by the Costco comment- suggests that a cheese is $15/lb because you are marking it up so much, not because it's a cheese that is so much better (and more expensive wholesale) than anything you can buy at Costco.
That was clearly his point, it just wasn't revealed until the back-and-forth (compressed a little in this post) was finished.
Liars and time-wasters are the most reviled people in the business.
amen, sir.
I think the tried and true: "Stop wasting my time, you asshole" line would have been quite applicable.
If you are too stupid to understand why some cheese cost more than others you do not deserve delicious, awesome, fine quality cheese.
If you are too stupid to understand why some cheese cost more than others you do not deserve delicious, awesome, fine quality cheese.
see, it's not even that, because it's a legitimate question if someone has never thought about those issues or doesn't understand the differences between cheeses. It's just not a legitimate question from a food professional who would understand how mass buying and living wage issues will affect pricing.
Edited at 2009-05-28 05:14 pm (UTC)
You're right, of course.
It was his attitude and hostility and evasiveness which made me angry enough to call him stupid.
Genuinely curious and interested people who go into cheese shops to ask questions like this are not stupid, they are just uneducated about cheese.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/12329739/425546) | | From: | ![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) reveritas |
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| Date: | May 28th, 2009 05:37 pm (UTC) |
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| | Tangentially related | (Link) |
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Oh my god. What a tool.
This reminds me of when I had a very temp job working for an asshole furniture designer who sent me all over Manhattan to do recon at hotels--sans business cards from him, with instructions to question staff without providing info. I was like yeah, this plan is gonna go over really well. Different industry, but people in general don't like being questioned about the particulars of their work place by a secretive figure, I'd imagine. Bad form!
I read http://retailanarchy.com/ frequently.. Today's post mentioned overtly aggressive shoppers and the author's belief that aggressive, fueled-with-entitlement shoppers are on the rise. . I certainly hope not for you. I certainly couldn't work retail, I hate(most)people!
That is an awesome site - I was unaware of it until now. Thanks!
It's a fun, informative read. Marketers really think we are stupid!
Liars and time-wasters are the most reviled people in the business.
In life, Gordon, in life!
"I just find it strange that you can sell cheese for $15/lb. Why don’t people just buy it at Costco?”
I think you are being too kind about his question. To me, this is at the level of, "Why isn't there only one store in the world? Why isn't there only one type of every product, like in 'Repo Man'? I love that movie."
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/1407525/123629) | | From: | ohmeohmy |
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| Date: | May 28th, 2009 11:01 pm (UTC) |
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| | correct answer | (Link) |
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"Because they would have to go into Costco to do so."
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/3562197/721588) | | From: | dcart |
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| Date: | May 28th, 2009 11:21 pm (UTC) |
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How much of what you sell could even be found at Costco?
a few things that are identical.
For this guy it was more general though: "Aged Gouda" "Sharp Cheddar" "Manchego". We carry different brands but that didn't matter to him.
There's nothing like some aggressive, predatory shop talk to get a good business relationship going.
There are some decent cheeses that you find at, let's say a Whole Foods, that are way less expensive at Costco. But you have to know what they are and you learn about them at the grocer that has someone around to answer questions. Also, you aren't going to get a manageable size. It's gigantic. This is not to say that it even makes more sense to get it at Costco or advocating for it. I just noticed that people in the comments seemed to think the product was different. But sometimes it's exactly the same product, just a lot cheaper. Once again, no one there is going to answer your questions, and you are going to have to store a giant block of cheese.
you are totally correct. I would have tried to disabuse that idea (that there were *no* identical cheeses) if I hadn't been selling cheese all day. ;)
I would argue that there is also sometimes a care and handling issue as well. And sometimes cheese may look the same but isn't. P'tit Basque, for example, is often the waxed version at the big box stores. This means that while it's very hard to hurt the cheese, it also doesn't aged since it was sealed at the factory. The P'tit Basque we (and many other stores) demand is the natural rind one which is a little stronger and more interesting.
But your point is valid and I'm glad you brought it up.
Haha... I have to admit that I was also fishing for a way in which they could be different because I have wondered if they were. I had never considered the handling issue, the aging and natural rind. This also goes back to the idea that you aren't going to get any expert advice at Costco. "Welcome to Costco I love you."
need to cover shrink
Is shrink a notably larger problem in the cheese department?
in this case it is not a euphemism for theft. Some cheese goes bad and needs to be tossed. Less than in produce, more than in packaged grocery or refer (where there are a lot of guaranteed sale items).
Since they dealt with him quickly and appropriately, I will not ID the company.
ok, so now i want to know what you did to have him "dealt with" :)
oh, and in other news, ill be down in your neck of the woods in mid-august! im looking forward to coming by and staring at cheese in front of the old gang.
honestly, it's practically the only situation where I'd go over someone's head and talk to the owner of the company. I called and was all, "What the fuck?"
hah! thats what i was figuring, and thats what i wouldve done too - good to hear they reacted well. your visitor certainly doesnt have a future as a cheese spy.
Ok now I want some aged gouda. Thank that guy for the power of suggestion.
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/48841852/5838489) | | From: | nahmo |
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| Date: | May 29th, 2009 05:21 am (UTC) |
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utah's an interesting place... at both places i've worked for here, we got people in "spying" as they say heh... i don't get it. especially not here. this place is so small, i know who all these people are, and it doesn't take me long to figure out who they're working for without even asking them. there are basically two or three places in the state where you can get good cheese with proper knowledgable service... one of those three where you can get *great* cheese heh. everyone else in town comes in to take notes and figure out how they can replicate what they see.
whenever i approach people who i know are scoping us out, they're very defensive and avoidant. they brush off my offers of assistance, and i say "well if you have *any* questions, feel free to ask and i'll be more than happy to help" with a broad smile and knowing wink. to which they respond by nodding, akwardly smiling back, and talking quietly whilst slowly backing away until they think i'm out of ear's range. then they huddle back together and chat over their notepads occasionally making louder comments for the sake of appearing like they are shopping... or sometimes out of spite "oh, look! i saw this at xyz for a much better price" pfft...
and regardless of who they work for, they're all the same. unless they aren't from Utah. lol. when people i recognize as visiting sales reps for suppliers that other people in town deal with, they're always chatty and straightforward.
i was talking to the boss about this phenomenon, and he shook his head and affirmed that it's a trait that many folks in the food business here share. i just think it's funny. as you say, there aren't that many secrets... yet they act all cloak and dagger, but in such an obvious way that it just makes you want to laugh and sigh.
btw, our margins are pretty much the same range ;)
![[User Picture]](http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/33344324/1266531) | | From: | lapsed |
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| Date: | June 1st, 2009 03:25 pm (UTC) |
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He's totally going to yelp about his bad cheese counter experience.
"I asked a simple question and the dude jumped down my throat like I was asking for trade secrets! Chill out hippies!" |
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